Some things I have come across in the last few weeks on Reddit

- People ask for advice about a sensitive subject, maybe not in the ideal sub, and get downvoted, and the people giving advice get downvoted because of how loaded certain topics are, and posts are deleted all the time, which means all the time spent on trying to help someone is wasted.

- Downvotes for sharing factual information which the user doesn't like, for opinions, sometimes petty revenge: Why should people share their personal opinions if they get punished for it?

- Even worse - downvotes for articles or links you post. Why go through the effort of providing content when your account gets punished for it? If you don't like the content, say so in the comments, don't just downvote the OP who has nothing to do with the content. This will lead to fewer people actively participating on Reddit by making posts in the future. To understand that is basic media literacy.

- Bullying kills: People who are seriously distraught and ask for help but end up deleting their post, which has a detrimental effect on someone's mental health. If this is discussed, even in this sub, more downvotes. How do you downvote someone stating they don't like to downvote others? How do you tell someone they are not tough enough for Reddit? These are issues that need to be discussed, whether someone needs to toughen up or not.

- Mods removing posts for a multitude of reasons, hard to make sense of, hard to play by the rules if the rules are seemingly impenetrable. If you use a wrong word or the answers to your post might lead to unwelcome content posts are removed - it can be anything really. Sometimes they say they are in the process of changing the rules, so I guess try again later with different results?

It is not good enough to say Reddit is better than Facebook. Reddit can be criticized according to its own standards.

This turned out to be the longest post I've ever made, but is a summary of things I've worked out over a few years and I think many people may not have noticed. For the lazy who just want a few tips, you can read the disclaimer and then go to the bottom for TL:DR/advice. Advice for mods is also at the bottom.

Disclaimer: I am not describing the whole of reddit, nor will the below apply to every redditor, but it'll certainly apply to some or many. Reddit can be an extremely good source of information, entertainment, support, advice and friendship. However, it also has a few problematic design features that will inevitably cause problems for some people, in some circumstances, and on certain subs more than others (depending on the person). I've personally experienced the stress caused by these problems and have talked to many who have described the same things. I've also had some very reassuring experiences where differences were sorted out and both people came to a better understanding, I've made friends, I've improved my life immensely after discovering something important on reddit, etc. Some of the concepts below also apply to other social networks and internet forums - nothing below is really unique to reddit, but I think many redditors don't appreciate that reddit is a real social network. I never used to either. Read the below and you'll see why it clearly is, and the harms this can sometimes cause.

I've increasingly noticed some of the toxic effects reddit can have, and have been trying to work out why. Reddit, despite what many of us think, is not just a place to post links, but is also very much a social network. The only real difference is that it is not focused on profiles with our real names and pictures on them. It is focused on sharing content, sharing views, and building interest-based communities, with some facility for personal messaging as well. This does not mean reddit does not focus on identity or social status, or that people do not stand to be harmed by it in a similar way to other social networks. In fact, I believe some of the mechanisms (downvotes and subreddits) may actually cause more problems for some people.

I'm not looking at this as a researcher, from the outside - I've had countless reddit arguments and experienced downvote and upvote brigades (for some really baffling reasons), I've angrily downvoted people's comment chains and made sure to upvote who I agree with etc., I've sorted through my comments to see what was popular, what wasn't, and I was shocked at how arbitrary it was. Many of those experiences led me to write this post, and I hope it helps some people.

The below is listed in 4 sections - the first is pretty basic and less harmful than the rest! Each section follows on from the next so you might be missing context if you just skip one entirely.

Upvoted content/opinion is more arbitrary than we think, but to us, signifies relevance and popularity

Upvoted posts go to the top, either because they're interesting, entertaining, relevant and/or controversial. This can filter out our awareness of issues not considered important by the majority on reddit, and over time can change our view of what issues are important or not. It can also change our standards for what is entertaining/worth our time.

In comments sections, even on non-political or controversial posts, upvoted comments are at the top, with dissenting or 'unpopular' comments being at the bottom. The earliest comments get upvoted more, so that the opinions at the top tend to be those of people who were sorting by new, and who had more time and motivation to comment (i.e. hold stronger views, have less to do, and/or seek validation). Opinions that come later never get seen by the majority, and this filters out the full range of opinions from the view of every user unless they're specifically looking for them, so scroll down until they find validation. Angry people are also more likely to scroll down, or even sort by controversial, to look for views to downvote.

Downvotes encourage conformity because we perceive them as signifying 'wrongness' and adjust our behaviour accordingly

Even if they're early, comments that are unpopular or just make one or two people feel bad about themselves or angry, get downvoted. This changes our view of what is popular/acceptable to say, even though we usually don't think about the fact that 'Angry people click more', and trolls exist here and downvote largely out of their own anger or feelings that have no relevance to our situation. These people will not make the effort to be civil or understanding, because to them we are just a faceless 'bad' person. Downvoting it makes them feel better, and others then feel inclined to join in, feeling they are part of an 'in-group' with similar attitudes. Socially isolated people who have less support and kindness offline are particularly prone to doing this (as with regular bullying).

So, opinions that are too unpopular (in that specific sub, at that specific time of day), or even just come off as strangely worded or in some way unpleasant, are almost always downvoted. We notice this and are afraid to voice our true opinions or 'ask stupid questions'. This can ultimately reduce our self-esteem and trust in our own views and values, and encourages us to conform, avoiding saying anything that isn't morally defensible and worded so that the fewest number of people will be likely to dislike or disagree with our view. We learn to expect downvotes for any of our real opinions unless they're 'vetted' first or people already agree, sometimes feeling the need to preface by saying "I'm genuinely curious", "Please don't downvote I just want to know" or "I'm not disagreeing - I just want to hear your view". We feel like an outsider, and feel social stress, whenever we consider voicing anything we haven't seen voiced already, because we're afraid of being rejected/persecuted for it (i.e. downvoted and brigaded). This is what conformity looks like. We change our behaviour, and even the way we think, to appease people we don't know because we don't want to be outsiders. Again, socially isolated people are particularly prone to this, as they may seek support from reddit communities. They will often only find it through conformity, and may lose confidence and their ability to think freely in the process.

The 'reddit argument' tricks our brain into feeling like our social standing is at stake, and triggers a biological stress response which, if it happens too regularly, can take a toll on our mental and physical health

The notorious "reddit argument" usually starts with someone saying something that someone finds controversial, harmful or just wrong somehow. It's really not that important because usually only a few people will see the comment anyway. If enough people have seen it already and upvoted it, it's too late and your opinion will be ignored among the hundreds or thousands of other responses. So one person gives their opinion, trying to uphold their values and/or show the other person a different perspective (or just defend their own views which they perceive to be under threat). Again, they're aware other people may also read their comment, so they make an effort to make it morally defensible and clear, with no room for misunderstanding, while stating that they're not trying to be mean etc. - all to avoid downvotes and in hopes that their view will be validated. Often the two people will get into a back-and-forth where both people don't know each other, feel attacked and feel they have to 'win' the argument, at first to convince the other person of their view. Often no progress is made, it devolves into insults and a complete refusal to acknowledge the potential validity of the other point, and very rarely do people change their opinion (strongly held opinions are hard to change, especially if they make you feel attacked and under potential scrutiny by an audience of upvoters/downvoters).

As upvotes/downvotes flow in, one person feels validated while the other feels like they're losing social status. Upvotes/downvotes here again largely depend on whoever sees your comments first (usually a member of the majority in that sub, which may well be a very extreme minority in real life), and the angrier they are, the more they'll make sure to downvote the person they disagree with and vice versa, and maybe jump in with their own comments. Regardless of who is 'right' or whether one person was being harmful/toxic or trying to be understanding, the person who gets the most upvotes the soonest will feel more sure of themselves and safely part of an in-group, while the other will feel a very real sense of losing social status, and may in some cases begin to doubt their view or at least their ability to communicate or be understood. Experiencing that regularly enough contributes to social anxiety, where you compensate for your perceived lack of ability in social situations (and worsens it if you already had it).

In any case, the argument devolves into both people being stressed, but one person eventually being reassured and enjoying 'winning' the argument, and the other feeling 'defeated' and like an outsider. This is called social threat, and triggers the same biological stress response as a real-life dangerous situation like a fight or heated argument (it's an evolutionary mechanism that allows us to sense when we may be less popular and therefore less supported in our communities). This stress response is physically damaging if it becomes chronic, implicated in the development of depression, anxiety, insomnia, fatigue, cardiovascular and metabolic disease among others. Yet nobody has really won or lost anything in real life, and most people will never see the comments. And neither person would bother arguing that way in real life unless they were both among people who knew them or were watching interestedly, waiting to reject or otherwise punish the one who says something wrong. This situation virtually never occurs in real life, because anonymity isn't a thing and both people are expected to be courteous and understanding, otherwise they often immediately lose their social standing. So what did we gain? Nothing at all, except a stressful and harmful distraction with a bit of social reward for one party.

'Risky shift' - how subreddits become echo chambers and encourage the growth of extreme views and norms

Risky shift is a concept in psychology that applies to any group with varying political opinions, with some having more extreme views than others. It is used to explain the radicalisation of members of a political party or extremist terrorist group, as well as how cults maintain a closed off unit where dissent to the ideology of the leaders is kept under control. In these groups, a very small minority have the most extreme views, and tend to voice them strongly. Many in the group may disagree but not want to cause trouble, as they do not want to lose a sense of belonging and support from the group. As soon as someone does disagree for whatever reason, they are called out and their values/loyalty to the group's ideology questioned. The person with the more extreme view usually will not change their view, and the dissenter either concedes to the view (often feeling insecure and under threat afterward, and even more under pressure to conform and show their worth), or leaves/is kicked out of the group. Either way, most of the group will remain. The extreme view becomes more acceptable, the leader becomes more confident and others more afraid to voice dissenting opinions.

Over time, this means that those who cannot abide by the extreme views are filtered out, until the group consists (or appears to consist) of those with more extreme views. Those that may have been on the fence before, no longer have access to as many dissenting views, and begin to perceive the extreme views as more normal and acceptable, are more invested in the ideology and feel part of something 'genuine' and important as long as they hold the extreme views themselves. A group of mixed and largely moderate views has become one with a strong, unidirectional set of extreme views that nobody questions (even if some don't truly agree). New members enter and, depending on their own views and willingness to conform, may fit in and fall into the same views or leave almost immediately. Either way, the group now attracts: 1) People with the same extreme views; 2) Vulnerable people who are prone to ignoring their views for a feeling of belonging. Former members may know of the group and worry for some members, but ultimately cannot do much to help them or show them that they aren't necessarily happy or fighting for the good ideology they think they are.

This phenomenon usually describes cults/radicalisation, but I believe it applies almost directly to subreddits too. A subreddit with 100k users appears popular, but actually consists of only 1 in 70,000 people on earth. That is an absurdly small percentage of real people. Even with the biases in geographic location of reddit users being largely in the US, UK, etc., this is still a minority. 100,000 people is around 1 in 3,000 of the people of the US. Extremely rare. And many members of subreddits are bots, or people who follow without agreeing with the ideology at all. Yet when part of such a group, albeit anonymously, we are inclined to believe it is popular - there is a large number of us who believe the same thing. And again, the most extreme views get posted the most, often upvoted the most, and the dissenting comments are downvoted most quickly (or in some cases, moderators ban people from the sub). So, people who agree with some of the views in a subreddit (particularly political subs) may follow the posts and comments, and over time come to see these extreme views as more normal and acceptable (whereas in real life they often are not). And they feel part of a supportive group and gain validation and a sense of belonging when they post views/content that group agrees with.

Dissenting views (or even those considered by the more extreme members as somehow disloyal or immoral) are quickly brigaded with downvotes. There is very little room for civil discussion, and dissenters either concede, leave of their own free will or are banned, until the group consists almost entirely of extreme views. An echo chamber. A tiny minority of the world, who you don't know and who don't know you, who don't care about you and will never meet you, can become a source of 'support' but also lead you down a road of extreme views that are very distorted and may even hold you back in normal life. You censor yourself online for a sense of belonging, by agreeing or just not voicing any 'unpopular' or 'disagreeable' view, and may find it more difficult to interact with people in real life as your extreme views are met with disapproval and trouble. But you don't need them to understand, and unless they have the patience to discuss things civilly (and you don't put them off with your now extreme and often hateful views), you'll isolate yourself from real social interaction. And if you do realise the group's ideology was not actually that realistic or morally guided, you'll have an extremely hard time convincing the remaining members of that. They believe you were never loyal to the ideology, and see you as an outsider and a threat. Exactly like a cult. This part is admittedly referring to some of the more extreme subreddits, but you'd be surprised how many mental health subs there are where if you don't go with the predominant ideology (often around identity/pride in a problem), you can feel the rejection even from people who have the same problems and experiences as you. Again, the most extreme views are loudest, and angry people click more.

TL:DR - Reddit is a social network just like any other, and if we're not careful, it can take up too much of our time, warp our view of ourselves, others and the world in general, cause us a ton of stress and be harmful to our mental and even physical health. I've outlined a few mechanisms and given some advice on how to avoid/reduce the harms. If you want to understand the problems in full, read the whole post (yes I know it's long!).

My advice to all redditors: Ignore upvotes and downvotes. Say what you believe, but remember your comments will often just be preaching to the choir or fall on deaf ears (particularly on political topics). Help people and talk to them with kindness and understanding, but don't alter the way you say things in fear of downvotes. Don't worry about the scary number of insane views you see, and the downvote brigades if you say something 'wrong'. Remember reddit is not that exclusive (certainly not these days), and the users and their views are not actually going to affect your life unless you let them - they're not important people until you know them better. Gain confidence and validation in the real world - not from upvotes. And if you find yourself having too many reddit arguments, checking your post/comment history and being stressed out about whether you won/lost/said something unpopular/stupid, etc., maybe try to spend less time on reddit. I have, and I feel quite a bit better.

Important edit: The downvote button is probably the most toxic part of all of this. Having just an upvote button would maybe just lead people to feel unappreciated when their contribution isn't upvoted, but what does the downvote button do over and above that? All it can really signify is 1) People in this sub don't agree with you; 2) People in this sub don't like you. And in either case, someone went out of their way to show you that. I really do think a lot of people are more vulnerable to the social stress of that than they realise, but especially some people. I.e. for some people, it can easily become a much more general impression of "People don't agree with you or like you, so much that they often go out of their way to downvote you". That can become a very real threat to someone's self-esteem if they aren't ready for it, especially if they already have negative views about themselves due to experiences they've had in their lives.

How mods could improve their communities: Turn off the downvote button. Try to only ban people and delete posts for a lack of civility/respect or outright bullying/abuse, rather than unpopular views (I'm sure most mods who are reading this already do this!). Perhaps use AutoModerator tools to encourage open and civil discussion (done in some subs but certainly not all). Try to remember that users will come to your sub for various reasons, usually because they want to learn or discover content, find like-minded people who share interests, seek support, but may also be vulnerable to the harmful effects of what I've described above and/or vulnerable to perpetuating some of the above issues. Keep an eye out and remember people's self-esteem and sense of purpose can get caught up in all this, and certain interactions can cause very real stress and take a toll on their health over time. Try to find ways to prevent that happening in your subs, and encourage an open, safe and civil environment where content and opinion matters more than popularity.

I realised quite recently that I'm not the sort of person who downvotes. I will only downvote if someone is being unnecessarily rude or abusive. It might be just my personality, but I can't properly grasp the psychology of the 20 or so percent of people that seem to downvote quality posts (subjectively speaking of course, but democratically verified by the karma system itself to a degree). Is it merely a symptom of the gamification of reddit, in that mild spite takes points away from another "player"? Or do these people genuinely dislike these posts and its down to a matter of probability that out of the people who read the post, there are statistically a certain percentage likely to downvote?

EDIT: kind of not surprised I've been downvoted . . .

Man, I'm just trying to connect with people and discuss stuff here, but anything outside of the CPTSD subs is just Downvote City.

I just made a post about a podcast I listen to where one of the hosts did something mildly questionable. I kept it positive, was completely non-judgmental, and I did not trauma dump, just said I wanted to open a discussion about it. Even threw in a joke to keep it light. Immediately downvoted. 3 responses saying "go to therapy" (have for 6 years but thanks).

I responded to one of them who suggested a specific form of therapy, with "Yeah I've tried that for a year but it didn't help. Thanks for the suggestion though!". That comment, thanking someone, was downvoted to -2 within 1 minute.

The thing is, the podcast is arguably one of the most friendly and inclusive podcasts available, and their listeners still had such ire that they downvoted me into the negatives for saying "thanks" to someone.

Even though I am only ASD Level 1, I also have severe OCD, and I can see how many people are downvoting me and how many downvotes I have per post. However, downvotes and their equivalent in real life, like getting insulted or berated, crushes my self-esteem. I also have GORD (Gastrointestinal Œsophageal Reflux Disorder), and I obsess about things like this to the point that stomach acid washes back into my throat. How to avoid obsessing about downvotes and stuff?

I feel like whenever I want to make a genuine thread or ask questions or advice or opinions and I get downvoted even once I just become very anxious and depressed and I just go full salted earth and delete all posts because clearly I did something wrong and people are upset at me and I don't want to cause any more problems. I don't know why I am like this at all but I am so extremely self-conscious that people disagreeing with me even if I am not arguing or I am doing something simple as going to a video game reddit and asking opinions on an older video game and right out the gate being downvoted and gatekept from posting about it. This isn't the only example but the most recently and just trolls downvoting just instantly tanks my mood and makes me wonder why I even come to reddit.

All the communities I have been a part of either have died or become insanely awful in terms of quality that I genuinely have no other community sites to go to and if I keep having such a reaction to downvotes then I will probably stop coming here too. Having paper thin skin is an absolute curse and any disagreement even very non-constructive ones just kill me because I try my best to please everyone and avoid any chance to upset anyone even on the internet and have a very visual representation on you upsetting people hurts to the core.

if my comment is even one minus karma I feel hurt. I feel like I meant no harm but someone took it harmful and I wouldn’t know why. I think I have asd and it’s really hard to understand other people sometimes and I get SUPER discouraged by even 1 downvote. i feel like i’m so insecure for that and i have bad fear of rejection

I’ve always been a sensitive person who’s often afraid to speak up for fear of judgment from other people.

I’m also generally soft spoken, kind and respectful even in my few online interactions as I learned that I should always treat people the way I want to be treated.

Recently I posted on a general sub asking for advice. I didn’t post or comment anything even remotely offensive or rude, yet people have been horrible to me and have been mass downvoting my comments ever since.

This morning I looked at the number of downvotes on many of my comments in the thread and I actually started crying.

I’m mad at myself for caring about what anonymous strangers think of me and regret ever posting in the first place.

I guess I just wanted to get this off my chest as the incident put me in a really sad mood.

Thanks everyone who read this:)

EDIT: I just got off work and wow, I’m blown away by all your kind responses, thank you! :)

While it’s sad that so many people had similar negative experiences, it’s encouraging to see that at least on this sub there are still a lot of supportive and nice humans :)

Taking an occasional mental health break from socials is probably also a good idea.

Does anyone else get a fair amount of anxiety when they are downvoted here on Reddit? Especially when you haven’t said anything controversial, rude, or inappropriate? It happens to me kind of often, and I just end up getting embarrassed, and deleting the entire comment itself because I feel I said something wrong. I was just wondering if anyone reacts in a similar way and how do you guys deal with it? Any advice for not letting it get to you?

Once I was in a sub and someone said they were having mental and emotional problems their friends can't helped them with. I replied that they should look into seeing a psychologist or a licensed clinical social worker. I got a bunch of down votes and several people call me an asshole and other names.

I asked one person why was I an asshole. They said, they thought I was calling that person crazy by telling them to go to therapy. So that person down voted me and called me an asshole because they thought I was insulting someone. Meanwhile their own actions were stigmatizing the idea of people seeking professional help when their family and friends are not equipped to help.

People on Reddit love to claim they only down vote if it's off topic or someone is spreading misinformation. Misinformation is the new excuse people use to justify their behavior. But honestly I think most people down vote emotionally. If people were more honest about down voting and said they were doing it to punish someone for expressing the wrong thoughts I'd respect them more.

I’ve been there before myself, but redditors need to stop getting so personally offended when they get downvoted. The downvote button is there for people who disagree. there’s people who get so worked up over like 4 downvotes. There will always be people who don’t like what others say and honestly I wish Facebook had the same thing instead of those stupid emojis.

A research paper preprint showed up online this month for a study that shows that downvotes have a large negative impact on the future behavior of the downvoted users on social news sites:

Not only do authors of negatively-evaluated content contribute more, but also their future posts are of lower quality, and are perceived by the community as such. Moreover, these authors are more likely to subsequently evaluate their fellow users negatively, percolating these effects through the community.

whereas upvotes do not have a significant impact in either direction:

positive feedback does not carry similar effects, and neither encourages rewarded authors to write more, nor improves the quality of their posts.

and finally:

Interestingly, the authors that receive no feedback are most likely to leave a community.

Important caveat: This study was performed with data from CNN.com, Breitbart.com, IGN.com, and Allkpop.com. reddit could possibly work differently.

An article about it here: https://medium.com/the-physics-arxiv-blog/aad9d49da238

And the preprint of the research paper: http://arxiv.org/abs/1405.1429

I'm curious about people's experiences with downvotes on reddit. Have you found the same effect happening to you here? Have you had more positive experiences in subreddits when they removed the downvote button?